N4 QT Video problem: Truncated video file length on import

kdm · Senior Member Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 1640

I am thinking this is a QT engine bug in N4 possibly related to either format, codec, or aspect ratio?

I have a 00:03:15.xx length 720p, 29.97 video that when imported as a QT MJPeg, H.264, or full res file into Nuendo is truncated to 3:04. I've tried it with and without audio: with audio, the audio track is extracted to the correct, full 3:15 length but no matter what QT format I use, the video file is always truncated to 3:04 (not just length reported in the pool, but also the actual file on the video track).

Quicktime Pro player and Nuendo 3.2 both show the full, correct length file (MJpeg and the uncompressed 720p QT original tested in Nuendo 3.2 since H.264 wasn't supported then).

When rendered to MJPeg .avi from the original in Vegas, then imported to Nuendo 4, Nuendo does see the correct length.

Fwiw, I have used other QT files with no truncating problems so far, so it may be unique to this video which was originally 1440x810 - 1:1.78, letterboxed/downres'd to 720p during render.

Anyone seeing similar issues?
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Andrew Mottl · Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:14 am Post subject:

kdm · Senior Member Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 1640

Project frame rate is 29.97. This only happens in N4 - works fine in N3.2, regardless of project frame rate. When tested in N3.2 I just imported the video into a blank project without setting frame rate and length was not affected on import or playback (just to test it and be sure).
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kdm · Senior Member Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 1640

I'm about 99% positive this is a bug in N4.1.2.

I tried rendering a simple 1 minute 12 second QT clip created with just two photos in Vegas 8 (and 6 as well), with a full fade on the end to see lenght changes, and temp audio track to compare to. With QT renders to MJPegA, B, H.264, DV, etc, Nuendo 4 always truncates the video length - instead of 1:12, they were 1:08. Audio was 1:12. I tried this with Vegas 6 and 8 - same results. Aspect ratio and dimensions don't seem to have any affect (tried standard 720x480, 320x240, progressive, interlaced lower field first, etc - all the same result). Re-encoding to H.264 in Quicktime Pro also produces the same problem.

These files work fine in Nuendo 3.2, Vegas 6 and 8, Quicktime Player (7.1.6), Sonar 7, and Sequoia 8.

It's only N4.1.2 that has this problem, so it isn't a Quicktime version issue. I can post the clip as a small H.264 file if anyone wants to test this.
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kdm · Senior Member Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 1640

I just reproduced this on a different PC with Cubase 4.1.0, Quicktime 7.3.
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dph · Member Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 440

it looks like a bug
it sound like a bug
and it smells fishy,

so it is probably not a bug,
maybe a fish?

where actually is the bug-base? seems to be hidden every time i look for it.

kdm · Senior Member Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 1640

Good question - I have no idea where the bugbase is. I'm sure you are right, it probably is a fish and not a bug. Tuna most likely - the chicken of the sea.

Fredo - can you add this one to the list? It's 100% reproducible here with QT files from Vegas, so it may be related to Vegas' QT export, but since these files are fine in every other app than Nuendo 4, it's looking more like a Nuendo issue than Vegas (trailers from Apple.com and projects I have from Final Cut don't seem to be a problem).

Oh, Steinberg just wanted to say "thanks for all the fish!" ;-)
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dph · Member Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 440

bugbase:
http://forum.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=15631
last update Jan 05

so maybe there is a more recent fishbase

jrfountain · Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject:

I know one of our mixers has been having this exact problem with his system at home. So you are not alone.

As for the bugbase, you have to log-in and then you'll see an extra heading called "Nuendo Info Base" or something like that. For whatever reason I always have to log in twice before I see it though.

JR
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kdm · Senior Member Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 1640

JR - where is he taking QT files from? So far it seems related somewhat to how Vegas handles QT exports (header encoding I would guess). I tried a QT export from Flash, and it was truncated, but only by a couple of frames (same with another prosumer video app).

At first I thought it was due to Vegas not adding a timecode track to QT exports (Apple trailers, and cuts I get from FCP editors all have it), but there wasn't one in the Flash exported QT file.

I did find the bugbase, but only mods can post. Fredo?
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jrfountain · Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject:

kdm · Senior Member Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 1640

A little bump for this bug that needs squashing.
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Exsod · Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject:

Same problem here!!!
With N3 no problems at all. With N4... wtf!!!

Quicktime from an Avid Adrenaline 324x243 (low res). Original total length: 39m 47s. Nuendo only reads until 37m 56s (almost 2 minutes truncated!!!).
I'm telling to my editors to render the files a little longer, but it is not an elegant solution, and it should NOT be a workaround.

I'm a big fan of Nuendo, working with it from v.1.5. When I upgrade from N1.5 to N2 it was awsome!!! I couldn't be more happy. The upgrade from N2 to N3 give me some headaches, but did not truncate my workflow at all, and it din't tooked so long to get an stable version. But this upgrade is the worst ever!!!. Don't get me wrong, I like the new features, I really love new automation, instrument tracks, etc. But I don't like things that used to work just fine, get broken who knows why...

Crashes almost once per hour, with no (apparent) reason (even when pc is idle!!!). Quicktimes not read correctly. The incredible new feature Mediabay, crashes my Nuendo too. OMFI import sometimes crash, and hit abort when importing ALWAYS crash... And I could go on and on...

Sorry fellows but I don't think this version is a mature piece of software yet. Don't know how you beta-tested this product, but definitvely it needed more exhaustive testing.

If I didn't know that people at Steinberg are serious people, I'd really ask for my money back.
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Exsod
Nuendo 4 + NEK, RME HDSP 96/52, RME ADI 8-DS, UAD-1, TC Powercore, Euphonix Artist Series Controllers, 5 Genelec 1030A + Sub 1092A.
AMD Phenom X4, 3GB RAM, Windows XP SP2, SATA II Audio HDs

Neil Wilkes · Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject:

This may be unrelated - I do not remember seeing this before.
Trying to import a Quicktime that I know is 720x480 NTSC.
When browsing to this, I am seeing the size reported as 640x480.....
Open it in Quicktime player, it says NTSC 720x480 (640x480) which I assume is related to QT's inability to correctly display the right PAR.

Oddly enough, the resulting image is exactly correct though. Which makes a change, as it is squashed in Quicktime player.
Hmmm.
Bloody video.

The file is a 2 minute one.
Duration is totally correct when imported into N4 here.
Source of this Quicktime (which is an 8-bit Blackmagic file) was Adobe After Effects CS3.
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Exsod · Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:06 am Post subject:

Bump.

Mr. Fredo... Moderators... Support Team... any word?

We really want to know if this issue will be adressed in the next update. I don't want to get stick on N3 as the only stable and working version of the software. The new automation is a wonderfull upgrade, mediabay and the clip editor "re-make-up" are wonderfull too. So please tell us we will get some attention for our plies. Don't forget we are customers, some of us with more than one Steinberg product registered (not only Nuendo).

I had to go back to Nuendo 3 (with no problems at all I must say) to get things done. The crashes and this QT problem were driving me mad. But I do want my Nuendo 4 to work. As in the past I want to make value of the money invested.

I know you're doing your best... but any word? At all?
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Exsod
Nuendo 4 + NEK, RME HDSP 96/52, RME ADI 8-DS, UAD-1, TC Powercore, Euphonix Artist Series Controllers, 5 Genelec 1030A + Sub 1092A.
AMD Phenom X4, 3GB RAM, Windows XP SP2, SATA II Audio HDs

Exsod · Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:08 am Post subject:

I forget to say: I converted the same QT file to AVI and WMV video format. And Nuendo 4 imported OK, with no problems at all.
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Exsod
Nuendo 4 + NEK, RME HDSP 96/52, RME ADI 8-DS, UAD-1, TC Powercore, Euphonix Artist Series Controllers, 5 Genelec 1030A + Sub 1092A.
AMD Phenom X4, 3GB RAM, Windows XP SP2, SATA II Audio HDs

Neil Wilkes · Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:39 pm Post subject:

Can I ask how I can repro this problem please?
Do I need a specific type of Quicktime codec, or a length above a certain duration?
Is it Mac or PC?

I ask as when importing a 2 minute Quicktime 8-bit Blackmagic file, at 720x480 0.9 PAR, everything was the right length here.
Do I need a longer file?
Do I need to use a different codec?
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kdm · Senior Member Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 1640

Neil - it only seems to happen with Quicktime files from Vegas and some Avid files (based on the reports). I haven't yet had a problem with Final Cut files. Encoding format doesn't seem to be the issue, and length doesn't matter (N4 will just read it about 6% shorter), but the actual QT encoding app is a factor (so it's likely a base level Quicktime header or data format variation that's being misread by N4). Fwiw, even re-encoding a problem file with QT Pro doesn't help, unless you go to AVI.

If you can't find a QT file that repros this, I can post a short one that will.
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zvenx · Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject:

apparently I don't speak English, or maybe it is the accent ;)

http://forum.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=16005&highlight=264
rsp
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richard sven patterson
sound sculptist
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kdm · Senior Member Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 1640

Richard - I remembered that thread, but thought it was leaning towards a 26+ minute issue (admittedly didn't re-read it though). I posted this to be sure it was obvious that this isn't tied to length, or encoding format, and is in fact a bug (and since I had a solid repro). Sorry for missing your thread.
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zvenx · Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject:

:-)
that's ok. I said what I said above in jest.
Pointed out the thread to suggest that it has been with us since N4 and hopefully this new thread will allow it be be bug based and fixed.
rsp
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richard sven patterson
sound sculptist
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Nuendo 5 | Intel DP35DP : Intel Quad Core QX 6700 : 4GB RAM | Windows XP Pro SP3 | Lynx Two C | Midisport 2x2 | 2xUAD-1, UAD-2 Quad | Blackmagic Intensity Pro |

kdm · Senior Member Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 1640

Hopefully it will be bug-based, but I'm not overly optimistic since this is the third bug in N4 I've posted with no comment from Fredo or Steinberg. Either Fredo is ignoring us completely, or just isn't responding that it has been noted. Oh well. I'm sure our clients won't care if these bugs get fixed.... at least the bedroom musician rants on Cubase.net seem to be getting some attention since they pushed for a hotfix that doesn't cover the most critical bugs for us Nuendo users (crashes/corrupt projects being one).
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Neil Wilkes · Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject:

kdm · Senior Member Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 1640

Hi Neil - I will pm a link to you tomorrow (Monday morning here). Thanks for checking this - the more confirmation and investigation the better.
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Neil Wilkes · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject:

KDM

Got the file, and it is all most weird to be certain.
As we are discussing in the other thread, I am still not certain where the bug is - there is most certainly an issue though.
It could well be as you suspect, in N4 - or it could equally be poor code in the other apps - Vegas & Avid.
The reason I think this might be the case (although Steiny are far from blameless) is because we know that tightening up of the code has happened in N4, as was proved by previously unknown bugs surfacing in certain surround plugins. Also, DodgyDesign have altered & messed with OMF & AAF to suit themselves.
Additionally, I know the same file when run through Premiere Pro CS3 comes out & imports into N4 with no truncation. Oddly though, the original says in QT Player and in N4 that it has 1716 frames, yet after going through PPro CS3 it has 1801 frames instead. Hmmm.
Again, the same (unaltered) file does import into N3 with no issues - but the old PPMulator Plus & W5 also both open in N3 with no issues and we know they have bugs. So I still wonder.
If N4's Quicktime importing is hosed - why are files from Premiere Pro unaffected?

What disturbs me here more than anything is the utter lack of any official response to this issue.
Where's Fredo when you need input?
As you so rightly state in the POST forums, if this is N4 - then it is screwed for serious POST work.
Again - perhaps more worrisome - if this is an AVID/Sony issue, then we are royally screwed.
And to be brutally frank I would not put altering this past either DigiDesign (AVID's owners) or Sony. Both are into their own power trips.
So - again, as you point out already - the ball is in Steinberg's court whatever way we look at this.
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XP Pro SP2, Nuendo 5.x, 4.3.0 & 3.2.1, DD & DTS, Surround Edition, WK-ID Controller, 3x UAD-1, MLP Lossless, DTS-HD, ES & 96/24, DPL II, SSL ProConvert, Sonic DVD-A Creator, Sonic Scenarist yada etc.